CyberScape LIVE! On-Line Interview with David R. Hamel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Sunday, June 13th 1993, at 9:00pm CyberScape LIVE! featured a talk with David Hamel, Author of the BOXER and BOXER/TKO Text Editors, and Writer of the Programming Column in Shareware Magazine! David is also president of his own company based in Peterborough, NH called Boxer Software. This week we also welcome a new face, Richard Ziegler. Rich is the Editor of the Pasco BBS Magazine, and also Sysop of the Board of Trade BBS in New Port Richey, Florida (813) 862-4772. The Pasco BBS magazine will be carrying "The Best of CyberScape LIVE!" as a regular feature. Thanks for helping out Rich, and welcome to CyberScape LIVE! Every Sunday night at 9pm (Eastern Time) CyberScape BBS turns into CyberScape LIVE! and hosts a Live On-Line Interview with a personality from the shareware or BBS industry. We have many such interviews planned with SysOps, Authors, and all the other people both in front of and behind the scenes of the shareware industry. Stop in some Sunday night and you can be part of the action. Anyone who calls CyberScape BBS and joins us in a LIVE Interview will get a chance to post their questions and have their name or company appear in the transcripts. What you're reading is the written transcript recorded LIVE, On-Line, in Chat Conference on CyberScape BBS. Sometimes in an On-Line Chat the conversation can get difficult to follow since replies don't always follow questions directly. So, during editing, conversations have been grouped (eg: questions grouped with answers) but other than that, this is the EXACT text of the interview. Preceding each line of dialogue, you will notice a number and name as in the following example: (01:DAVID HAMEL). The number shown is the CyberScape Node Number that the person was logged into, and the name tells you who said what. That's about all the explaining that needs to be done, we hope you enjoy the interview! Dave White * Sysop -=CyberScape BBS=- - Get On with it Already! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sunday, June 13th, 1993 Start of Session with David Hamel, Author of the Boxer/TKO Text Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (00:DAVE WHITE) Hi Richard (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Hello, how's it going? (03:DUANE MORIN) Hello? Am I on? (00:DAVE WHITE) Hi Duane, You're on! (01:DAVID HAMEL) Hello? (00:DAVE WHITE) Hi Dave.. Looks like we all made it! (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Hello David, this is Rich Ziegler in Florida. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Hi Rich, Hi Dave... (00:DAVE WHITE) David, can you tell us a little about your personal history... Where you're from and things like that? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I was born in New Haven, CT and grew up in nearby Hamden. I stayed there until I left to attend college. All in all a pretty uneventful childhood I suppose - there were no home computers back then. I'm 35 now. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) What about your family, wife, kids? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I'm married with two children: Ben turned 6 today, Rebecca will be 4 soon. We live in a small community in rural New Hampshire. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Well, wish Ben a happy birthday from all of us! (01:DAVID HAMEL) Will do! (03:DUANE MORIN) Might I ask where you went to college, and what you majored in? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Sure - I started at Northeastern In Boston, but transferred to SUNY at Buffalo. I started out majoring in Mechanical Engineering, but after the home computer thing hit, I transferred to Computer Science. (03:DUANE MORIN) So, you found a Bachelor's degree to be sufficient for your purposes? Or did you go further? (01:DAVID HAMEL) No - that's another story. :-) Switching majors was costly in terms of credits, so I never did finish. Computers are a field that moves so fast that you can get by without a degree, I find. (03:DUANE MORIN) I agree...I found that the best knowledge in this field is self-taught, anyway. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes - if you have ambition, self teaching can beat a "normal" degree. Look at some of the founding fathers at Apple, eg. These guys are often drop outs. :-) (00:DAVE WHITE) What first sparked your interest in PCs and programming? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Programming is a very natural thing for me, and always has been. I find it to be almost second nature. I got started with the programmable TI calculators, then the Radio Shack Color Computer, and then on to the Atari ST and to PCs. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Hello Everyone, Sorry I am late!! (01:DAVID HAMEL) Hi Jeremy! (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Hello, How are you? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Tres Bien. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) moi aussi (01:DAVID HAMEL) bien! (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) I take it you're French? (01:DAVID HAMEL) A little... I just know a few phrases. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) I take it in school... (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) What programming languages do you prefer to write code in? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I now use C exclusively. I've done some BASIC, PASCAL and FORTRAN in the past. (03:DUANE MORIN) Have you worked on shareware programs in the past, or is Boxer pretty much your first major release? (01:DAVID HAMEL) No - BOXER is my first effort. It evolved not from a plan to create a Shareware product, but from an interest I took in text editors. BOXER spent 5 years in "secrecy" with just a few friends using it. (03:DUANE MORIN) How did you keep such a project alive for 5 years without it being, well, productive? I.e. I take it you didn't do it for the money?? (01:DAVID HAMEL) That's a good question. I've got a talent for seeing things through to completion. It was done as a hobby - there was no money to support the initial development, just time. (03:DUANE MORIN) A spare time, thing? You had a full-time job as well? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Oh yes. I had been working all through BOXER's early development. I'd routinely quiz people about editors they'd used and try to collect ideas. I ran the project pretty seriously, but it was all for fun - initially. (03:DUANE MORIN) Any suggestions for seeing shareware programming as "fun" and not as a second job? I'm running into this problem myself at the moment. (01:DAVID HAMEL) I think the *best* way to approach Shareware is for fun, and not for profit. That is a far more reasonable approach, since so few make real money anyway. But, if you're talented, and you've got incredible persistence, you might make some money after all. (03:DUANE MORIN) "So few make real money anyway"? I'd like to save that and get back to it later, if we could... (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes, we could probably go all night on that. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) I understand that at one time Boxer was released commercially for the Amiga. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes, BOXER was released very briefly for the Atari ST (not the Amiga). Back then it was called SPROUT. :-) (00:DAVE WHITE) Can you tell us more about the release for Atari? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I developed BOXER primarily on the Atari for quite a while. I didn't use the GEM interface, just character mode. So when I started getting access to PCs, it was easy to port between the two platforms. I kept the code portable for quite a while that way. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) It seems like you have made every effort to make BOXER user-friendly, things like using different key setups and extras like a calendar and calculator. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes - being responsive to users is very important. You've got to find a way to try to be all things to all people without ruining your product in the process. You need to decide what suggestions have merit, and to let people change things without bothering all the users. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) So, Dave, What kinds of things do you like to do in your spare time? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Spare time!? :-) Actually, I'm just now starting to have some balance return to my life. For about 2 years I have been obsessive about BOXER, mostly by necessity. Starting the business has been very time consuming. I enjoy spending time with my children, and also searching for antique advertising signs to add to my collection. (00:DAVE WHITE) What advice would you give to aspiring young programmers with regard to shareware and programming in general? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Find a project which has genuine interest for you. Trying to learn programming by writing a program which holds no interest for you doesn't work very well. This is often what happens in programming courses. But when a programmer is truly interested in his work, then magic things can happen. (03:DUANE MORIN) Why did you choose a text editor? Was it tough to compete with other popular editors, like PC-Write, Emacs? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I felt that a text editor embodied many different aspects of programming: memory management, searching, sorting, screen display, user interface. As such, it seemed a neat thing to tackle. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) What do you think was the greatest obstacle in the development of BOXER? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I remember some very frustrating times while coding the Undo capability. It was the sort of thing that was so complex, it was hard to conceive it all at once. I'd have instants of complete comprehension, then they'd slip away. To see it completed, you'd think it was pretty simple, because it's a pretty elegant approach. But that would ignore the difficulty in getting to that solution. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Could you tell us about BOXER/TKO, is there a limit on how big of files it can edit? (01:DAVID HAMEL) BOXER/TKO uses all installed RAM for editing. I _believe_ it can use just 16MB of RAM, but to be truthful, the folks at Phar Lap weren't sure themselves. In any case, it will use all installed RAM, even that above 640K. (03:DUANE MORIN) "..just 16MB". That sounds cute. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) The Multi-Level Redo feature was worth the frustration! (00:DAVE WHITE) What marketing techniques have you found to be the most successful? (01:DAVID HAMEL) The BBS distribution channel supplies about 2/3 of my registered users, so that has certainly been important to me. While not literally a "technique", I believe that the attention to detail in BOXER is what initially got people excited about it, and what hooks people. It's funny, because "attention to detail" isn't something that you find in a bulleted feature list. It's a hard thing to sell. But after people try BOXER, that's what they're reacting to, most often. (00:DAVE WHITE) So in this case, regarding the attention to detail, the shareware distribution must be the best means since it's only seen after trying Boxer... (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes - that's a very good point. The Shareware channel is perfect for the kind of product that must "be seen to be believed" or which really hooks you once you try it. People are reluctant to change editors, so you've got to make it as easy as possible. (03:DUANE MORIN) So are you supporting yourself on BOXER now? You mentioned before dedicating all your time to it. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes - I've been doing BOXER full-time since 9/91. I quit my consulting job a bit before I should have, but BOXER had shown promise, and I wanted to follow my heart. I've been flattered by the praise I've received. :-) (03:DUANE MORIN) So with a little dedication a programmer CAN support him/herself on the registrations of even ONE strong product? That relaxes my worries about the earlier "no real money" comment. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes, in some cases. I don't recommend starting with that hope, though. Do it because you love it. Dedicate yourself beyond belief. Have remarkable patience, and some talent. Then it may come. (Sorry to add so many qualifiers :-) (00:DAVE WHITE) Can you give a few of the major points of the new upgrade? (01:DAVID HAMEL) One of the neatest features is Color Syntax Highlighting. This feature automatically applies coloration to reserved words, comments, constants and symbols based on the extension of the file being edited. BOXER reads a straight ASCII configuration file that defines all the popular languages, so users can fine-tune the configuration, or add support for languages not present - or even for those not yet conceived! (00:DAVE WHITE) That sounds great... Are you planning more updates too? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Of course! I maintain a list of almost every suggestion I've ever received, and I browse that list to see which features are most desired and can be added without too much disruption, or adding too much code. (03:DUANE MORIN) I've tended not to use (colorization) in the past because they are difficult to initially configure. Does BOXER come with things like .C config defaulted? (01:DAVID HAMEL) YES! You don't need to do anything to realize the benefits of Syntax Highlighting. It's completely automatic. BOXER uses the file extension of the current file to select the configuration information. You _can_ fine-tune if you like, but it's all setup for all major languages - simultaneously. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Maybe you could tell us a little about how you started writing the Programming Column for Shareware magazine. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Michael Callahan (Dr. File Finder) has always been a Beta Tester for me, so we've always passed a lot of messages in Email. In that way he became familiar with my writing capabilities. When he was looking to add a column, he asked me, and I jumped at the chance. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) My time is running out! (00:DAVE WHITE) uh oh... I'll be back in a minute. (03:DUANE MORIN) Whoops, I think we lost Richard and Dave for the moment. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Dave is giving Richard more time... (00:DAVE WHITE) We lost Rich... Hopefully he'll be back! (03:DUANE MORIN) I don't read much of Shareware mag... what's your column about? (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) I'm back . (01:DAVID HAMEL) I've been writing the Programmer's column in Shareware Magazine for about 1-1/2 years. I target the column at beginning to intermediate programmers, but even the experts may pick up some ideas from time to time. I cover programming issues with special appeal to Shareware programmers, or at least relate how programming decisions affect Shareware programmers specially. (00:DAVE WHITE) What do you find is the biggest challenge to writing for Shareware Magazine? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I like to write from personal experience, and on topics that I have a good knowledge of. So for me, the hard part is thinking of the right topic to write on. Once I've got a good topic, the writing goes pretty smoothly. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) I can appreciate that writing here in Florida. It seems like a lot of articles are aimed for Shareware and BBSing...things like smaller and faster programs. (03:DUANE MORIN) What are your feelings on using lots of "canned" tools, library packages, etc...to piece together programs? Do you think it makes a stronger program if it's written all by one person? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Good questions, Duane. I haven't used much in the way of libraries. The only library in BOXER is one to swap to EMS for DOS Shell and Compiles. I've done all the windows, menuing, pop-ups, etc. myself. In this way you can do things exactly as you need to, and often get things to run more quickly. Regarding a program being written by one person, I've some thoughts there, too. :-) It really gives the programmer a lot of flexibility to be able to act instinctively, and w/o needing to please the marketing department. Also, the resulting program has a singular personality, something missing from many programs which were "developed by committee". (03:DUANE MORIN) ...and learn how to do it for yourself in the process? (Thank you for the compliment. Can you tell I'm a struggling programmer?) (01:DAVID HAMEL) Yes - that's the other bonus of eschewing libraries - you do learn to do it yourself. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Do you find a lot of people pressuring you to release an update at a certain time? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I have users who begin to call after 6 months or so, but I wouldn't say there's much pressure. I've never let a release go too long though, so that may be why I've never felt the pressure. For me there seems to be a natural cycle: I release a new version, and fall into marketing mode. That gives way to programming mode, and to Beta Testing. Thankfully, that all seems to take about 10-12 months, which is when people are itchy to see a new version. :-) (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Are there Shareware programs you use regularly, and which ones are your favorites? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I've tried to use Shareware programs as much as possible in my business. Let's see: Anarkey, Noteware, PopDBF, PKZIP, Calendar Wise, Blank-It! and probably several others. I tend to edit with BOXER. ;-) (03:DUANE MORIN) What do your registered users get via upgrades...one freebie? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Users who register at the $50 level, or who buy BOXER/TKO get a coupon for 1 free upgrade. But all upgrades are discounted; you're never liable for the full purchase price. For example, BOXER/TKO was offered to registered users for roughly the difference in price, so there was no "penalty" for having registered early, so to speak. (03:DUANE MORIN) Have you got a "favorite" shareware program? Something someone else wrote that just impresses your socks off? (01:DAVID HAMEL) Favorite program? Oh boy! I really don't get a chance to see all the neat things people are doing. I'd say the best program is definitely %6%^%$$]]4]55 -Whoa- Did you see that line noise!! ;-) (00:DAVE WHITE) (03:DUANE MORIN) What the heck? (03:DUANE MORIN) I don't think we saw your answer there...the best program you've seen is..? (01:DAVID HAMEL) (line noise) A clever question avoidance technique. :-) (03:DUANE MORIN) Ah, sorry. Faked me outta my socks. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Well, put 'em back on. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) You seem to have much talent in the world of text and such, from the looks of your BOXER program. In the future do you plan on any other programs, such as an ANSI draw program? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I expect to stay within the editor field, as that is where I've built my name. Editors for other platforms are a logical way to move, eg. (03:DUANE MORIN) How about a rephrase ...are there any games out there that get space on your hard disk? Shareware or otherwise? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I'm not awfully big on games myself - I really don't have the time. My son started very early on the computer, and has been helped enormously by the Word and Math Rescue games we bought, after finding them through Shareware. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) I think you discussed making programs portable in a recent "Programmers" column, do you see that as the near future of BOXER? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I think I've done a pretty good job at keeping BOXER portable. I've used portable data type declarations throughout, and PC specific code is isolated in separate modules. Code that interfaces to the BIOS is all in one place, eg. (00:DAVE WHITE) What does the future hold for Boxer/TKO? What improvements are planned? (01:DAVID HAMEL) BOXER/TKO will continue to grow in the direction of BOXER. The sources are shared, so when an enhancement is made to BOXER, BOXER/TKO automatically gets it. It's working well to have the two-tiered product structure. (03:DUANE MORIN) I'm unclear on the difference between the two..could you elaborate a little bit? (01:DAVID HAMEL) BOXER/TKO is the large-file big brother to BOXER. BOXER edits within conventional DOS memory - the lower 640K. BOXER/TKO uses the Phar Lap DOS Extender to gain natural access to extended memory. The processor is run in protected mode, so the address space is not segmented. This worked very well for BOXER, which was written in such a way that the sudden expanse of memory was fully usable without any modifications. (03:DUANE MORIN) Well, I'm afraid other tasks are calling...I must call it a night. Thanks for some enlightenment, David, particularly on programming for shareware. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Thanks for participating Duane! Good Night. (00:DAVE WHITE) Thanks Duane! (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Bye Duane.. (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Later Duane... (03:DUANE MORIN) Good night (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Would we someday see a BOXER for Windows or OS/2? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I'd prefer not to telegraph my immediate plans, competitors, you know. :-) (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) I understand. I have nothing else I'd like to ask, just thanks for the insights and good luck on both programming and writing David. Thanks to CyberScape, as well this was fun! (00:DAVE WHITE) Thanks Richard. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Bye Richard, thanks a million! (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Bye Rich... (02:RICHARD ZIEGLER) Thanks Dave. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) What is the easiest way for a user of your products to get in touch with you for comments/suggestions/praises? (01:DAVID HAMEL) I'm available in several different ways - it's really up to you which is easiest. I'm very active on CompuServe (70242,2126) which also gives me an Internet address (70242.2126@compuserve.com). I also monitor the Shareware conferences on RIME, ILINK and Fidonet. Further, you can call voice (603-924-6602) or Fax to 603-924-4471. (00:DAVE WHITE) I guess we are just about done Dave... Thanks very much for the opportunity to Chat like this. It was fun and enlightening. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Dave, thanks very much for having me on. I'd never done anything like this - it was quite a lot of fun! (00:DAVE WHITE) Thanks.. (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Ok, bye Dave (Hamel) it was nice talking to you.. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Bye Jeremy, thanks very much for calling in! (00:DAVE WHITE) Bye Jeremy... (04:JEREMY FRERICHS) Bye all.. (01:DAVID HAMEL) Thanks Dave, Good Night. (00:DAVE WHITE) G'bye Dave, talk to you later. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- End of Session -- June 13th, 1993 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - In Conclusion - We hope you enjoyed reading the interview. We hope you will join us LIVE next time, and get a chance to ask your own questions! We offer a Live Interview every Sunday night at 9pm with a different speaker each week. Of course, you are always welcome to stop by CyberScape and chat anytime! We have live chat areas, CB Chats, and all of our On-Line Interviews are available for download along with our "Best of the Best" file collection. Stop in sometime, and don't forget your RIPTERM! We are now supporting full RIP graphics at CyberScape, which helps make our BBS easy to use and more attractive also. Attention: If you are a Shareware Author or Sysop, and you'd like to be interviewed on CyberScape LIVE!, drop a message to the SysOp on CyberScape BBS at 508-368-8456. We're always looking for new and interesting people to chat with. So, if you'd like some additional exposure for your programs or your BBS, just let us know. We'll set up a LIVE Interview focused directly on you and your products or services. Give us a call! Dave White * SysOp -=CyberScape BBS=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How to get in touch with us: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Guest Speaker: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David R. Hamel - Author Boxer Software P.O. Box 3230 Peterborough, NH 03458 (603) 924-6602 (Voice) (603) 924-4471 (Fax) CompuServe Id: (70242,2126) Internet Id: (70242.2126@compuserve.com) Software Creations is the Home BBS for Boxer Software! Call them with your modem at (508) 365-2359! Conference Host: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave White - SysOp CyberScape BBS 108 Shirley Road Lancaster, MA 01523 (508) 368-8456 (Data) (508) 368-7085 (Voice) Publishing: ~~~~~~~~~~~ The Pasco BBS Magazine is a FREE monthly on-line magazine. Each issue will now carry "The Best of CyberScape LIVE!". The current issue is always available on the Board of Trade BBS which is run by: Richard Ziegler Pasco BBS Magazine, Editor Board of Trade BBS, Sysop P.O. Box 1853 New Port Richey, FL 34656 (813) 862-4772 (Data/BBS) (813) 863-5886 (Voice) Special Thanks to: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeremy Frerichs, Student, Leominster, MA Duane Morin, Shareware Author, Worcester, MA (Both Can be reached via E-Mail on CyberScape BBS) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution of This and Other CyberScape LIVE! Interviews: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are free to distribute this material on BBS's as long as you do not alter any of the text contained in any of the files in the original archive. This includes the FILE_ID.DIZ description file, and NO NEW FILES may be added to original archive. If you wish to publish any of this material in any magazine, article, or any other written or On-Line format, you must obtain the written permission of the Speaker(s) and CyberScape BBS before doing so. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- All text is Copyright 1993 by CyberScape BBS and David A. White --- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------